Really, That's Your Vehicle Lineup? (GM)

"shpuker" (shpuker)
08/11/2017 at 23:23 • Filed to: RTYVL, GM, General, Motors, General Motors., Alcohol

Ya’ll ready for a good ol’ fashioned internet tirade? Well if not fuck off because it’s GM’s time to get torn apart. Let’s get started.

Disclaimer: This edition of Really, That’s Your Vehicle Lineup? is brought to you by alcoholism. Alcoholism! With just a few shots and a few IPAs you too can pretend like you know what you’re talking about on the internet!

First things first, lets look at my favorite metric of all time. Total # of powertrain offerings (excluding trans options). GM has 19.... For reference, Ford has 18 and I pretty much blew a gasket about that.... This should be easy.

So what the fuck even are some of these engine options? How about the 1.8L N/A? Well let’s just compare it to Ford’s 1.0L EcoBoost! That should be fun! If only Ford put it in a Focus and Chevy put theirs in a Cruze, that’d just be perf... Oh they did? And Car & Driver reviewed both? And did 0-60's? and Fuel economy runs? Fuck me this is easy as hell. Ok well then...Well don’t keep them waiting, what’re the numbers?

1.8L EcoTec N/A
0-60: 9.4 sec
C&D Obs: 27 mpg

1..0L EcoBoost
0-60: 9.4 sec
C&D Obs: 33 mpg

Oh... Wait so why do you make the 1.8L GM? Why not design a 1.0L Turbo? Oh Opel did that for you? But you couldn’t match the EcoBoost? And you sold Opel? Oh.... That’s... Interesting?...

Fuck it let’s go with the 1.5L Turbo! Wait no the 1.4L Turbo? Wait you make fucking both? So they’re separated by 10 HP and 7 lb*ft?... Ok GM you’ve got a fucking problem.

Ok, let’s go to the 2.0L Turbo, the staple of any car company nowadays! So what’s the 2.0L EcoTec put down?!

2.4L EcoTec N/A
Wait they don’t still... Oh just the Low-Cab Chevy? Well ok then...

2.5L EcoTec
200 HP
191 lb*ft
Wait that’s still the wrong fucking engine...

2.4L EcoTec N/A
Wait I thought... Oh it’s in the Buick Verano too?... Ok that’s not weird at all...

Ok fuck going through the engines, that’s just going to take goddamn forever. Let’s look at my second favorite metric! The standard brand to the luxury brand!

First up, the Cruze! What’s it’s luxo comparisson?! The ATS?! Wait no that’s an alpha platform like the CTS... Wait... Ok? Then the Verano, thats the same platform! So the Cuze starts at about $18,000 and the Verano starts at about $21,000.... Oh what the fuck

This isn’t going well at all is it. Let’s just single out a vehicle that shouldn’t exist then, the Chevy Impala.

Essentially the same wheelbase and width as the Malibu, yet it weighs in at a good 600 pounds more and has the same passenger volume?... And the Impala costs $6,000 more base? And doesn’t get the 2.0L Turbo?... And that puts it $4,000 away from the LaCrosse, which happens to sit on the same platform... This vehicle literally serves no purpose.

Take 2: Buick Cascada, AKA the Buick Verano Convertible... AKA there’s no Buick Verano Coupe BTW...

They sold 7,000 of these last year.... It costs $12,000 most than its sedan version... Honestly why the fuck does this exist?

This is just insane. The depth of the bullshit GM sells is too much to tackle in one go. I mean come one, they have fucking three “luxury” brands, and all three sell crossovers... I honestly don’t understand how this business model hasn’t resulted in a crippling bankruptcy... Oh... Oh yea..... My bad iT FUCKING HAS AND THEY HAVEN’T FIXED IT.... Honestly give me one reason why Buick, GMC, AND Cadillac need to exist...

I’m honestly having a hard time zeroing in on what exactly is wrong with GM because of the depth of their issues. Not only do they have overlapping engine applications, a gross miss-use of platforms, and a collection of pointless vehicles, but they literally have layers of self-competition.

So what sort of sales figures do you get with 1 baseline and 3 luxury brands? About 3 million units. Compare that to Ford at 2.6 million, ~15% difference, and an operating income separated by only 9%. What’s that give you? A market cap of about 118% that of Ford!... wait... really?... To be fair some of this might have to do with GMs joint ventures with a trio of Chinese automakers, but we’ll just pretend that’s not a thing.

Let me wrap this shit show of a post up with the words of the great Jim Farley: “Fuck GM. I hate them and their company and what

they stand for, and I hate the way they’re succeeding.

DISCUSSION (30)

Flynorcal: pilot, offshore sailor, car racer and panty thief > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:30

I’d take a Camaro SS ZL1 with the track package in a fucking heartbeat.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:33

This is low hanging fruit, look at what GM does well, trucks, camaro’s and full size SUV’s.

Spridget > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:33

Do you know why those cars exist? Because GM can do minor modifications on the the cheap, then launch the model with a huge markup and make an assload of cash.

TFen > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:37

I don’t get it either but GMC and Chevy Trucks do need to coexist.

I know GMC guys who would never own a Chevy and Chevy guys who would never own a GMC.

Some of these guys own companies with upwards of 10 trucks. And yes, they know they’re essentially the same vehicles. It’s ridiculous.

shpuker > Spridget
08/11/2017 at 23:45

Yea but when you take a Chevy and do that 3 times you aren’t making ass on that mark-up...

Jake - Has Bad Luck So You Don't Have To > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:47

Meh. I give you 2/10 for trying.

shpuker > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
08/11/2017 at 23:50

Trucks: When you combine GMC and Chevy they always match or beat out the F-Series in sales... I mean the 6.0L V8 is a dumbass engine to sell and they should have a 3.6L Turbo instead of the 5.3L V8 for sure but other than that...

Camaro: One of their flagship models... Based on a widely used platform... Uses existing engines... Yea pretty solid idea really...

Full sized SUVs: They still sell a Chevy, a GMC, and a Cadillac of these... Fucking why...

shpuker > TFen
08/11/2017 at 23:50

I’ve observed this scenario as well. Best answer I can come up with is that people are stupid.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:55

My only real gripe with GM is the lack of cohesion and identity within brands and the lack of stream lining their engine lineup. Ford is arguably worse with stream lining their engine offerings because there’s only Ford and Lincoln and it’s painfully obvious to see the overlaps.

The only other thing I’ll add is the continuing hesitation of putting 5.3L and 6.2L V8s where they would be welcomed. Why can’t I get a Camaro or Canyonado with the 5.3L V8? Why is it so hard to get a Silverado or Sierra with the 6.2L? And why has it been impossible to get the 6.2L in the Tahoe and Suburban or the 6.2SC in the Escalade? I refuse to believe that they wouldn’t be able to make a nice profit on a 640hp $150k Escalade V

pip bip - choose Corrour > Spridget
08/11/2017 at 23:57

Then just offer it as a trim package

TFen > shpuker
08/11/2017 at 23:58

GM sometimes knows what they’re doing.

They created a way to charge like $10k extra for what’s essentially a badge (GMC Sierra Denali vs Chevy Silverado LTZ).

Now they’re able to attract two type of buyers with the same truck (value buyer vs elitist).

If they ever made a Caddy truck I’m sure they’d find even more success.

A Platinum Ford or Longhorn Ram just wouldn’t carry the same cache as a full size Caddy truck. You’d have a lot of non-GM top-tier truck buyers moving away from their brands to buy the Caddy, just because it’s a Caddy. Rich truck guys are some of the biggest snobs out there.

shpuker > Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
08/12/2017 at 00:06

I completely understand GM not making a V8 Colorado/Canyon, they simply don’t want to poach sales from the Silverado/Sierra.

A 5.3L Camaro fills a gap that IMO doesn’t need to be filled.

And they don’t put the 6.2L in the Tahoe/Suburban Because they don’t want to push Escalade sales. A 6.2L SC Escalade makes a lot of sense to me though.

PS9 > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 00:10

Honestly give me one reason why Buick, GMC, AND Cadillac need to exist...

One? How about three?

GMC is the fourth best selling truck brand in the US, and all they sell (besides fleet box trucks) is rebadged Chevys. GM is making volume here with no effort at all and very little investment.

Buick is the best selling near-luxury brand in the United States. They beat Acura by 70k cars last year, along with claiming double Lincoln’s volume and even outselling Audi by a tiny bit (I suppose this is why we are getting a $40k AWD sporty car from them, since the have a clear indication that they can challenge Audi in this area now)

Cadillac is GM’s effort to challenge the germans and revive american luxury. Making a really, really, really nice Chevy isn’t enough; only a luxury brand can go up against other luxury brands. If not caddy, then who? GMC? Haha, no. Chevrolet? They are the volume brand and have no luxury cache. Buick? In a universe where there is no Cadillac, sure. But we do have Cadillac, so that’s the brand we’re going to use.

awmaster10 > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 00:10

to make money? And whats the problem with the 5.3 and 6.0 if they are competitive and bulletproof and cheap to mod

PyramidHat > TFen
08/12/2017 at 00:13

Had a GMC once. It was easy to spell...

shpuker > awmaster10
08/12/2017 at 00:19

The 5.3L is a great engine in its own but when you have at emissions standards closing in it won’t last.

The 6.0L is out dated and sluggish. The engine I imagine you’re trying to defend is the 6.2L V8, which is actually fantastic and quite modern...

Spridget > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 00:50

I don’t know . . . not only are you making a good markup, but you appeal to a different type of customer as well. Keep the Malibu as your midsize sedan and leave the Impala to be the fleet car diluted by being “everybody’s rental”, etc.

Steve in Manhattan > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 01:12

Let’s pretend for a second that I had a reason to buy a car (and could justify having one in the city). My cousin is a GM big shot, so I get the discount. Is there an SS left with a 6 speed? Dunno ... and does GM have anything I want? I honestly don’t know. Another has a connection to Fiat/Chrysler, so I could probably do well there. An Alfa? A Challenger?

At this point, it’s interesting for me to think about the various firm’s lineups, but it’s also difficult for me to think like a buyer. And Opel, Holden, Vauxhall, Seat, and all those other GM brands that we might want? Again, I don’t know. All I know is I miss Pontiac and that Buick survived because the Chinese like the brand. And that Cadillac may never recover from the old man taint.

And I often ask myself the question - if I had to buy a car tomorrow, what would I get? E63 wagon or Volvo wagon, probably. Some sort of shooting brake (Panamera?) . Perhaps a Boxster if SigOther agreed. But that’s all mere speculation.

bhtooefr > TFen
08/12/2017 at 07:54

Another reason why GMC exists is so that Buick can offer a full line. Note that basically every Buick dealer is also a GMC dealer.

Although, then, where the Buick and GMC product lines overlap is just idiocy.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 09:40

I’m just surprised that the ZR2 and Canyon Denali didn’t come with the 5.3L, seems like an easy money option.

I also know that some people who buy Tahoes or Suburbans would never be caught dead in an Escalade and vice versa but would still pay for the 6.2

As for the Camaro, apparently feedback has been strong enough against the entry price point in a Camaro SS that Chevy is considering a stripped version with the 6.2 even though the 5.3 can perfectly fit in between the V6 and SS, though I agree that this is too many engine options. Honestly the Camaro has too many engine options anyways, a 2.0T Camaro is almost a completely different car compared to a ZL1 1LE.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > TFen
08/12/2017 at 10:07

In this market, a Cadillac pickup truck just makes sense. Mercedes is trying a luxury pickup truck everywhere but here and Cadillac would be wise to jump on the market before Mercedes comes in.

I see tons of Denali Sierras and even a decent amount of Canyons. I wonder how many of those buyers would have dropped an extra $10-20k to have the Cadillac version

Probenja > PS9
08/12/2017 at 10:37

What I do not understand is how Buick is going to survive without rebadged Opel’s, it’s going to need a huge investment from GM. What I would do is keep the Trucks as GMC (just like RAM), Buick as the SUV maker and Cadillac to compete with the luxury brands. Right now they are all pretty much competing against each other.

PS9 > Probenja
08/12/2017 at 11:01

What makes you think the rebadged Opels are going away? GM ownership is not a prerequisite for the rebadges, and indeed the prospect of having a virtual foothold in the US market where they didn’t before likely played a large factor in PSA’s purchase of Opel.

Not every Buick is an Opel in disguise, but Buick’s volume last year was 229k cars. The Average price of a Buick is about $30k or so. This represents a potential $7B/year in Revenue for Opel, and by extension, PSA. There’s no way the deal involved them throwing that away.

Also, they aren’t competing against each other at all. Buick is near luxury, like Acura. This means better interior appointment than you get from a rubbish badge with more attractive pricing than you’ll find from Audi, Merc and Bimmer. But it also means a lot of the neat things that come with expensive luxury cars will probably never be seen in a Buick (V8s, RWD, Nurberging Chassis tuning and all that). If you want something as nice inside or better as a Buick is with a firebreathing supercharged V8 engine (or a twin snail V6), you’ll have to walk across the street to Caddy and bring about $20k or so more with you when you go. $30k if you’re skipping the Americans altogether in favor of Germany.

shpuker > Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
08/12/2017 at 11:56

Honestly I’m not sure it’d fit into the platform.

This is fair. It’d be quite easy to make a case for putting it into Yukon at the very least.

Honestly if I could revamp the Camaro lineup I’d do this:

2.0L Turbo: 275 HP, 295 lb*ft

2.5L Turbo: 360 HP, 400 lb*ft
(Doesn’t exist technically so this is a guess assuming similar boost levels to the 2.0L)

6.2L: 455 HP, 455 lb*ft

6.2L SC: 650 HP, 650 lb*ft

gmporschenut also a fan of hondas > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 12:35

How about the 1.8L N/A? Well let’s just compare it to Ford’s 1.0L EcoBoost! That should be fun! If only Ford put it in a Focus and Chevy put theirs in a Cruze, that’d just be perf... Oh they did? And Car & Driver reviewed both? And did 0-60's? and Fuel economy runs? Fuck me this is easy as hell. Ok well then...Well don’t keep them waiting, what’re the numbers?

1.8L EcoTec N/A
0-60: 9.4 sec
C&D Obs: 27 mpg

1..0L EcoBoost
0-60: 9.4 sec
C&D Obs: 33 mpg

1.) They don’t offer the 1.8 anymore.

2) regular vs premium gas. going by local station reg(2.27) and premium (2.79) you get 11.84miles/dollar cruze vs 11..83 focus. So it really becomes a moot point. by not turbocharging the engine is much less complex, cheaper and under less stress.

briannutter1 > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 12:49

With a dohc turbo 4 costing more than a 6.0 non afm/vvt Ls to manufacture, I say Ls everything. Excellent gas mileage in a Spark I bet.

Shoop > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 13:49

Now hold up.

The 6.0 is one of the best engines gm makes, it is dead reliable, and has been making 250 hp to the wheels since 2001 They are notoriously reliable. The only thing 6.0 is bad at is fuel economy where it will get 12 mpg no matter if youre in the highway or around town. The 6.0 is a heavy duty truck engine, and so its not mpg anyway

The key point is that it is VERY different from the 6.2, which is a lighter duty, higher power engine

shpuker > shpuker
08/12/2017 at 14:03

That 2.5L Should read 3.0L

TFen > Carbon Fiber Sasquatch
08/13/2017 at 03:47

I just bought a new loaded diesel. I’m not ashamed to admit it, I would’ve dropped another 10k on a Caddy.

“Southern Hospitality” would be playing on repeat haha.

Carbon Fiber Sasquatch > TFen
08/13/2017 at 07:23

Yeah, I can totally see the appeal. It would be this generation’s El Dorado.